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  • C.Syde65
    C.Syde65 closed this thread because:
    The 7 day voting period has expired, and no opposition was expressed during that time. We only had one supporting vote and one comment. So the consensus in favour of this change is at 100%. However we need a minimum of 66% for a change, policy or otherwise to take place. So this proposal has well and truly passed. Thanks to everyone who voted.
    03:29, September 7, 2016

    Our current policies require that all prospective candidates or nominees for Assistant or Content Moderator first attain either Chat Moderator, Rollback, or Discussion Moderator rights on the wiki. I could just go ahead and modify the requirements myself, without seeking input from anyone who happens to notice this thread. But I have decided to propose that these requirements to obtain Assistant and Content Moderator rights are removed.

    It's important for us to understand why the requirements were originally put in place, and the effects they currently have. When the Assistant and Content Moderator user-groups were first introduced, it was decided that a user must obtain either Chat Moderator, Rollback, or Discussion Moderator rights, before obtaining Assistant or Content Moderator rights.

    There are no requirements to become a Chat Moderator, Rollback, or Discussion Moderator on this wiki, since none of these user-groups so far, especially the Chat Moderator and Discussion Moderator user-groups, have a significant impact on the wiki. Very few users use chat here, so the need to ban users is almost always overlooked. The forums on this wiki aren't used very often, and talk pages are used on this wiki instead of message walls, so the need to archive threads is increasingly limited.

    For users with Rollback rights, they are more likely to cause a problem since if a user is promoted to rollback on this wiki, and they are later revealed to be a troll, they may use rollback to revert good faith edits. The editing side of the wiki is significantly stronger than the social side, which probably explains why there has been one incident of an inappropriate use of rollback on this wiki, but no incidents of inappropriate uses of kicking and banning users, or inappropriate uses of taking over thread conversations, or article comments.

    Users that misuse rollback on this wiki receive warnings as a result of their blatant misuse of the tool, or if the situation is serious enough, they may risk loss of rollback privileges altogether. But since the rollback tool is the only thing roll-backers have that regular users do not, there remains to be no requirements to become a rollback here. Users who apply for Chat Moderator, Rollback, or Discussion Moderator rights here always tend to have their requests approved, unless they been found to have a history of negative contributions on this wiki, or on other wikis.

    For Assistant or Content Moderator rights meanwhile, a user must have Chat Moderator, Rollback, or Discussion Moderator rights. In addition to those requirements, there are several recommendations that can mean the difference between an approved request and a non-approved request. These recommendations are: having made edits to templates and categories, and use of more "complex" tools or features such as tables, and knowledge of or experience with JavaScript or Cascading Styling Sheets. These recommendations are not compulsory, but they can strengthen the chances of the outcome of the request.

    It is possible for a user to not be very experienced, and still have their requests for Assistant or Content Moderator pass. But it's a relatively uncommon occurrence, and is unlikely to happen, unless the user is considered trustworthy to use the Assistant and Content Moderator tools appropriately, and not abuse them for their own gain, and to cause havoc. The main reason why Assistant and Content Moderator rights are held to a higher standard is because they can view deleted contributions, change the protection levels of pages, and edit fully protected pages.

    Content Moderators can delete and un-delete pages whereas non-Content Moderators can not. And Assistants have access to several tools such as importing pages, marking reverted edits as bot edits, enabling and disabling article comments in blog articles, editing other user's user blogs, and editing wiki-style forums which are locked and archived on this wiki, and un-editable by non-Assistants.

    But to be honest, I feel that Assistants and Content Moderators are held to a high enough standard without needing to have one of the following pre-requisites - Chat Moderator, Rollback, and Discussion Moderator rights - because like I mentioned, there are several recommendations may have or may not have which can determine the difference between a successful request or an unsuccessful request. Chat Moderator, Rollback, and Discussion Moderator candidates meanwhile will always have their requests approved unless they have been found to have had a negative history on this wiki or on another wiki.

    Also I do feel that having those prerequisites in place doesn't do much to encourage users to apply for Assistant and Content Moderator rights, especially since Chat Moderators, Roll-backers, and Discussion Moderators will usually just want to apply for Administrator rights which are available for them to request. Users who apply for Assistant or Content Moderator rights are less likely to have their requests declined than if they were to apply for Administrator rights, since there are slightly more requirements to become an Administrator which are just recommendations to Assistant or Content Moderator candidates. There hasn't been a single user on this wiki yet that has had their Administrator request approved that wasn't once an Assistant - Content Moderator rights didn't exist yet at the time.

    For all the reasons listed above, I feel that with these changes, not only will Assistant and Content Moderator rights potentially receive more recognition, but users will no longer need to apply for any lower tiered rights first, which will serve as a benefit for users wanting to work their way towards obtaining administrator rights, having a choice between five user-groups to apply for, instead of three. Considering that the process of filtering out users who are unqualified for Content Moderator, Assistant, or Administrator rights is good enough, allowing regular users to apply for Assistant or Content Moderator rights as a first request will do much more good than harm, if there is any harm that is.

    Should we remove the Chat Moderator/Rollback/Discussion Moderator requirements for Assistant/Content Moderator candidates, and give them the option to apply for Assistant/Content Moderator rights to fulfill the requirements needed to apply for Administrator rights later?

    To weigh in on this discussion and vote, just vote below.

    To vote for, just post:

    {{VoteFor}}'''Support''' — <your reasons for supporting this policy change here>

    To write a neutral opinion on this policy change, voting neither for or against, but just to give feedback on this policy change, just post:

    {{Neutral}}'''Neutral''' — <your reasons for not supporting or opposing this policy change here>

    To vote against, just post:

    {{VoteAgainst}}'''Oppose''' — <your reasons for opposing this policy change here>

    Please do NOT quote this post, as it will clutter up the thread, and make it less effective.

    Countdown:

    Voting shall last for seven days. Time remaining:

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    • Green tick
      Support — Even if these policy changes are passed, the chances of promoting a user to Assistant or Content Moderator who later turns out to be unqualified for those positions are increasingly limited. And if an Assistant or Content Moderator does for some reason transgress from good faith to bad faith, they can easily be blocked and/or demoted. Assistants and Content Moderators cannot block and unblock users from editing, nor can they unblock themselves, if an Administrator or Bureaucrat blocks them.

      For Content Moderators, the easiest tools to troll with would probably be deleting and un-deleting pages. But if there ever was a situation where a troll somehow managed to disguise themselves as a constructive and experienced user and only revealed their true colours after being granted Content Moderator rights, their deleting and un-deleting actions can be reverted by an Administrator, or fellow Content Moderator, and the user can be blocked by an Administrator and Bureaucrat, and/or demoted by a Bureaucrat. Since users are rarely able to pretend to be good faith users to the point, where their rights requests are granted, I don't see why these policy changes would cause any harm, since the promotion system is already good enough at filtering good candidates from bad ones.

      For Assistants, they can't delete and un-delete pages like Content Moderators can, but they have several other tools which differentiate them from non-Assistants. The easiest tools for them to troll with I'd say would be exporting spam pages from another wiki, and importing them to this wiki. Non-Assistants can export pages from other wikis as well, but they can't import them to this wiki, since only Administrators and Assistants on this wiki are able to import pages. If there ever was a situation where a troll somehow managed to disguise themselves as a constructive and experienced user and only revealed their true colours after being granted Assistant rights, their imported spam pages can be deleted by an Administrator or Content Moderator, and the user can be blocked by an Administrator and Bureaucrat, and/or demoted by a Bureaucrat.

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    • Hello !

      I don't want to remove the Chat

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    • This proposal isn't about removing chat from this wiki, or from any wikis that I'm on that currently have chat enabled. This is about changing the requirements for certain user-groups for the benefit of this wiki, and for the users that choose to apply for them. It's not going to have any effect on chat.

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    • The main reason I'm proposing this is because up until now, regular users have not been given the opportunity to request or be nominated for Assistant or Content Moderator rights. But once a user has been promoted to a Chat Moderator, Rollback, or Discussion Moderator on this wiki, not only do they become eligible to request Assistant or Content Moderator rights, but they become eligible for Administrator-ship, so most of those users would tend to skip applying for Assistant or Content Moderator rights and proceed to apply for Administrator rights.

      But since the Administrator user group has been held to a significantly higher standard than Chat Moderators, Roll-backers, or Discussion Moderators, but only a moderately higher standard than Assistants and Content Moderators, it makes it tough for non-Assistants and non-Content Moderators to make the jump.

      So making the Assistant and Content Moderator user-groups available to request to all users, will help to encourage users to apply for rights, and even if it doesn't do that, it'll at least make things easier for those wanting to apply for administrator-ship, making Assistant and Content Moderator rights available as prerequisites for Administrator rights, rather than having Chat Moderator, Rollback, and Discussion Moderator rights as prerequisites for Content Moderator, Assistant, and Administrator rights.

      Shortening the rope between Chat Moderators, Roll-backers and Discussion Moderators, and Assistants and Content Moderators, also means shortening the rope between Chat Moderators, Roll-backers and Discussion Moderators, and Administrators. It's kind of like hilltop of ledges. Imagine Regular Users were on the first ledge and the only way to become a Chat Moderator, Rollback, or Discussion Moderator was by climbing up onto the second ledge.

      But then imagine if you had to climb up onto the third ledge to become an Assistant or Content Moderator. Imagine if the third ledge was too high for users to climb straight from the first ledge onto the third ledge. And imagine if you had to climb up onto the fourth ledge to become an Administrator.

      Say, the fourth ledge was too high for people to climb straight from the first ledge onto the fourth ledge. And imagine if it was too high for most people on the second ledge to climb straight from the second ledge onto the fourth ledge. Most people would have to climb up onto the third ledge, and then climb up onto the fourth ledge.

      I kinda get the feeling that that's how the current process is set up. But by reducing the distance between the first ledge and the third ledge would mean that users would be able to climb from the first ledge to the third ledge - if they wanted to, obviously. On top of that, if the distance between the second ledge and the fourth ledge was reduced, then users would have an easier time trying to get from the second ledge to the fourth ledge.

      To have to apply for Chat Moderator, Rollback, or Discussion Moderator rights to be able to apply for Assistant, Content Moderator, or Administrator rights, and then being discouraged from applying for Administrator rights without applying for Assistant or Content Moderator rights. I personally don't feel that that really does much to encourage users to make it through an extra loophole, in order to be granted Administrator rights.

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    • Icon yes check v
      Issue is resolved
      The 7 day voting period has expired, and no opposition was expressed during that time. We only had one supporting vote and one comment. So the consensus in favour of this change is at 100%. However we need a minimum of 66% for a change, policy or otherwise to take place. So this proposal has well and truly passed. Thanks to everyone who voted. ― C.Syde (talk | contribs) 03:27, September 7, 2016 (UTC)
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